William KYNASTON b1761

A friend and third cousin of mine has done extensive work on Kynaston in Loppington (and has produced a privately-printed booklet on most branches of the surname generally, which, with his supplement, I hold); but I need to ask if he has time or wish to look at your query.

However, from the complete list of register entries in his work I can say that there was only one WK bap at Loppington in 1761, but another, earlier in 1759.

I highlighted the problems of coming to the wrong conclusion on Kynaston in a letter published in the current Spring edition of Montgomeryshire Genealogical Society's "Record".

In this case, have you checked out at Shropshire Archives the 1781 marriage at Ellesmere of a William and Martha (per a private submission to the IGI)? Places of residence, etc are essential.

But beyond this have you identified, and without any doubt, the burial of your WK with his age at death? Or those of any other WKs who might compete for baptismal "slots"?

Finally, you have not stated where you are based, as the Webmaster requests. (Apart from his reasons it makes a difference to me).

Hello

The 1781 marriage at Ellesmere, mentioned above, took place between William KYNASTON and Martha HALLMARK.  I don't know if the original register will give a more precise date or any additional detail so a trip to Shrewsbury needs to go in your diary.

Mike

Hello Michael. I have, I think, identified the burials of this William and Martha per the SBI, both being of Gadlas in Dudlston parish where their children, of at least earlier children were, per a "parent" search of IGI, baptised. But the "real" IGI entry for the claimed ancestor Edward in 1788 was at Oswestry, and the father given as "William or Edward" - another entry requiring checking, and raising doubt.

Whatever, the Dudleston William cannot be one of those bap at Loppington as mentioned above..

I await more from our poster, for reasons which may become apparent.

Hello Martyn,

Thanks for your response.

I wrongly concluded there were two "William KYNASTONs" born in 1761 due to there being two spouses: Martha HALLMARK & Elizabeth MATHEWS. It now appears he was married twice.

I have found two records for the son, Edward KYNASTON:

One shows the birth as 10 September 1788 & christening/baptism as 14 December 1788 St.OSWALD's Oswestry, the parents being William KYNASTON & Martha. The other shows just the christening as 14 December 1788 Oswestry, the parents being William or Edward & the mother Martha. (The records of William & Elizabeth do not show any children named Edward).

I don't know if the christenings are coincidence and there are two Edwards or not!

I am planning a visit to Shrewsbury in a couple of weeks time but as I am fairly new to this research I am not sure where to start, do you have any advice please?

I have not yet identified the burial or age at death of WK without doubt.

Finally, I am based in Maghull, Merseyside.

Man

Hello Mike,

Thanks for your response and for taking the trouble to view the record, I am visiting Shrewsbury in April so hope to find some answers to my queries at the archives.

Quite some research to carry out by the looks of it.

Man

Thank you. .

If you are planning to visit Shropshire Archives, normal days are Wed / Sat 10-00 - 5-00, longer Thurs, shorter Sats. Take evidence of identity / address in case you need a ticket for the secure reading room. They can take the passport-type photo for a very reasonable charge. Book a computer and fiche reader in advance via the Shire Hall on 0345 678 9000.

For background, try exploring this site, inc FAQ, Links and Shop. Other regular posters might suggest beginners' books. BBC website is probably good. (Have not explored). You might buy the standard 1:50,000 OS map for Shrewsbury which covers most, but not all, of north Shropshire

To buy the Burials Index cd may be a good idea if you expect Salop interests to widen. It is on the computers at Archives, when you can visit.

Immediate searches / checks that you need are that 1781 marriage and the 1788 bap at Oswestry. Then look up the other baps of William and Martha's children at Dudleston. Note, by the way, that there is no marriage register for Dudleston after 1757. Look for a burial at Dudleston of the Edward bap 1782. I.e., was there a "gap" to be filled in 1788?

There were families of Kynaston in Montgomeryshire, not covered then by the IGI, so iti s possible that the 1788 William and Martha were a couple who originated there.

However, as regards the couple at Dudleston, Martha was, I suggest, she buried there 29.5.1829, of Gadlas, aged 75; and William he buried there 27.4.1837, of Gadlas, aged 80. The Burials Index does not yet cover Dudleston before 1813.

You may find that Loppington is a red herring. But seemingly popular with our US cousins who post so many of the questionably helpful private submissions to the IGI.

I will now contact my cousin to ask if he still has sets of his booklets. Main one is just over 100 pages A5 size, illustrated in colour with heraldic arms of branches and of wives from armorial families. A superb guide to the overall structure of this very extended family back from 1100 or so. Original cost was £20-00.

Please keep looking in here for any further info from me or others.

Martyn,

Thanks for the advice it is very useful and will form part of my preparation before I visit the archives in April. I have various beginners literature at hand so will take the time to study these and the sites you have suggested to improve my research skills.

I will purchase the CD and OS maps also.

Finally If copies of the booklets are available to buy, please let me know.

Man

I have now spoken to my cousin; and, yes, a few copies of the booklet and small but important supplement are still available. Price £20-00 inc of postage (still!).

I should say that via a very quick skim I do not see a clear connection for your possible line; but you will gain some knowledge of the overall structures; and importantly will be able to rule out stuff seen via (the rather "socially anonymous") IGI as not appertaining or being already accounted for.

So write to: Mr Roderick D Davies, Wytheford House, Wytheford, Shawbury, near Shrewsbury SY1 4RT.

Perhaps you might say when you have a definite day / days for visiting the Archives.

Thank you Martyn, I will contact him shortly.

I am planning a visit to the archives Wednesday April 11.

Hello Man.

I found opportunity to pop briefly into Archives and look at that 1788 baptism in the printed and indexed register of St Oswald's Oswestry.

Glad I did. The entry reads: 14.12.1788 Edward, s of William Kynaston of Legg Street [ Leg Street is in town centre ] , wheelwright and Martha bap, born Sep 10.

A bit further down the page is a footnote by (Revd) T Salwey (who was vicar 1825-71) to the effect that the name William was wrong and should have been Edward, and that he knew that the eldest son of Edward K was an Edward. He refers to the next baptism in 1790, which indeed was 29.10.1790, Arthur, s of Edward Kynaston, wheelwright and Martha.

Looking in Boyd's Marriage Index (which you will find below the printed registers as and when you visit) this couple, Edward K and Martha Emb(u/e)ry married 1785 at Whittington. I have not pursued.

So I wonder if you might say where you have found "your" Edward in 1841 or 1851 Census. The one bap 1788 was in 1841 living with 80 year-old Martha, no doubt his widowed mother. (1841 ages of adults were rounded down to nearest 5 or 10).

I see an Edward with wife Sarah living as a farmer at Horton, an outlier of St Chad's parish, Shrewsbury in 1851 Census, aged born in Loppington, Sarah aged 52, born at [ I read as ] Muckleton [ Shawbury parish ] . Is tis the one? And if so was he Edeward, bap 29.5.1791 at Loppington, s of William and Hannah Kynaston, Brown Heath?

This latter couple cropped up in a recent posting here. Query under MADDOX.

Yes, see the long thread on MADDOX, SARAH a few pages back by Rachel, trading as Happinz..

I referred the topic around then to Roderick, who thought that he had been unable to place or fit in this William and Hannah. But, to be pursued - by someone!

Hello Martyn,

Thank you for taking the trouble to have a look at this. I am now intrigued & slightly confused as I may be looking at the wrong "Tree" altogether!

My GG GF is Edward (Wheelwright) aged 30 in the 1851 Census, m. to Eliza, registered in the Parish of Wooton. I can't make the address out on the census document other than No.27 Wooton _____?

In the 1841 Census, I understood him to appear again at the age of 20 in the Township of Wooton living with parents Edward & Sarah, both aged "50"., Lydia aged 9 & Hugh Owens? The record above this one shows Martha aged 80, Susan, Samuel, Jane, George & Mary. I was of the understanding the latter record was different somehow, although connected by surname. More searching to do I believe.

Also, I have reviewed the Maddox thread as you suggested.

Kind regards,

Man

Hello Man. With your information from the Censuses it now seems pretty clear that "your" line stems from the William and Martha in Oswestry, she almost certainly being the one aged 80 at Wootton in 1841. I think that I noticed in Oswestry registers that W and M moved from Leg Street to Wootton (which is close to the boundary with West Felton parish and the noted Queen's Head pub by the canal crossing the A5).

I will now break off to look up one or two things.

Oops! I mean Edward and Martha. They married 28.11.1785 at Whittington per IGI, year already noted in Boyd's index (she Embery; well-known salop surname EMBREY). Full entry should be checked on the fiche for status and witnesses - te latter often omitted in the printed register of Whittington.

Edward Kynaston, Wootton buried 15.6.1836 aged 60, per SFHS Burials Index.

So, turning to IGI Salop for baps 5 years either side of 1760 the one needed is probably he bap 19.2.1760 at Loppington, son of Edward and Mary. From baps of their children next before and after (per Roderick's transcript) they were of Brown Heath (which strictly was just over the parish border in the very large parish of Ellesmere).

But bear in mind that people were always moving into Oswestry from parishes in Montgomeryshire and Denbighshire; and that those counties are not covered by the IGI, at least for relevant periods. So, the Loppington bap cannot yet be said to be conclusively the only possible one).

It is clear from numbers of private or amateur entries in IGI that Kynastons at Brown Heath have been much studied. I fear that Roderick may not yet have been able to affiliate them or all of them.

Intriguingly he has a note on page 66 of his main booklet about a John Kynaston, wheelwright, of Horton, Loppington which you will see when you have the booklets. But not of the Brwn Heath line. Same page has a two-generation pedigree starting with a John Kynaston, carpenter, born 1704, with issue including an Edward.

Of course one cannot expect all this to be solved or sorted "overnight". Many of us take years to crack things. Roderick solved his own line via careful comparison of Wills in the 1690s or so.

And some more, now looking at Martha Embrey / Embery. I see in FreeBMD the death of Martha Kynaston September (third) quarter 1845 in Oswestry District. Only one in Salop 1840 / 1851 inclusive. The SBI cuts off for Oswestry parish in 1837. You can buy the certificate but might first look for her burial at Oswestry in those registers on fiche.

So long as she was a spinster Embrey at her marriage an approriate baptism is one in 1764 at Myddle (next to Loppington). This would make the age of Martha Kynaston in the 1841 Census to be overstated, if she had been baptised soon after birth.

But note that the names of the 1764 parents, Arthur and Susan(nah) are repeated in the issue of Edward Kynston and Martha in Oswestry.

Next, IF the above is correct, Arthur Embrey and Susanna Kynaston were married 2.2.1753 at St Alkmund's, Shrewsbury per real entry in IGI. Naturally this must be checked. Those registers were pretty good in recording real parishes of the parties.

Next, lIF the above is correct, looking for an appropriate Susanna Kynaston (assuming that she was a spinster, and allowing for usual caveats of other unseen possibilities) one really has only she bap 28.10.1724 at Loppington, daughter of Richard Kynaston, wheelright of Noneley [ in Loppington parish ] and Susanna [ Jones ].

I'm delighted to say that this is Roderick's own line; and that as shown in his supplement it is taken steadily back to the main line of Kynaston of Hordley, and to Sir Roger Kynaston (died 1495) ad his wife Lady Elizabeth Grey (illegitimately a great-granddaughter of King Henry IV).

(Now back to bed!).

And more from Archives this afternoon.

Oswestry, St Oswald burials on fiche: 17.9.1845 Martha Kynaston, Wootton, 84 [ this fits with the 1764 baptism of Martha Embrey

Oswestry, St Oswald baptisms on fiche: 8.4.1821 Edward, s of Edward and Sarah Kynaston, Wootton, wheelwright

Whittington marriages on fiche: 28.11.1785 Edward Kynaston of parish of Ruyton and Martha Embery of this parish married by licence. He signs, she by mark. Witnesses Robt Bennett (whose signature is virtually the same, just a bit larger, as that of Robert Bennett who married Mary "Embry" 2.2.1779. Other witness John Venables, a "regular".

[ It seems that Martha, her brother John and sister Mary all moved to Whittington parish. John married there 30.9.1789, as of that parish, and by licence, Ann Clark of the parish of "Itwell" [ Etwall ] in the county  of Derby. Mary married Robert Bennett 2.2.1779 by licence, she of Whittington, he of "Kinerley" [ Kinnerley, just south of the large parish of Oswestry ] . Note that where a marriage was by licence it was not normal practice to state in the registers the then marital status of the parties. That would be disclosed in the licence. So, here one ought to finish the evidence by getting the "allegations and bond" supporting the licence. More anon on this, if required ] .

Shrewsbury St Alkmund's marriages on fiche: 2.2.1753 Arthur Embrey of parish of Wem and Susannah Kynaston of parish of Loppington. [ Note that Hardwicke's Marriage Act requiring properregisters and two wintesses did not come into force until the following year ] .

Myddle printed and indexed registers:

5.1.1756 Mary d of Arthur and Susan EMBRY bap

6.1.1762 John s of Arthur and Susan EMBREY bap

15.4.1764 Martha d of [ ditto ] bap

[ I did not look out other children. The burials of Arthur and Susan are not in indices of Myddle or Whittington up to end 1812, nor readily seen in SBI. Possibly at Loppington ] .

0000000000

Perhaps with the above you might prefer to delay a visit to Archives until you have digested Roderick's booklets. Would you care to mail your e-address to webmaster@sfhs.org.uk ? Graham can then mail it to me (or send a paper dart over my back fence as he is only round the corner).

And yet more. The Will of Edward Kynaston, wheelwright of Wootton was proved 1848 at St Asaph (in which Welsh diocese Oswestry then was). You can see this online via the National Library of Wales website: www.llgc.org.uk . You use right-hand click to zoom in or out of the image. Leaves most to wife Sarah for life then among his named children.

A search for marriage of this Edward and Sarah may be a bit tedious. Not (but not surprisingly) in the IGI - cover of marriages always thin after 1812.

As his father Edward was "of Ruyton" at his marriage in 1785 one ought to check baptisms at West Felton (which lies between Ruyton and Whittington / Oswestry); and is wholly uncovered by IGI before 1812. I did look at the printed and indexed registers of Ruyton this afternoon, and the only Edward K was the sqiire at Ruyton Hall in latter 18th century.

Martyn,

Thank you once again for providing all of this information. Where possible, I shall review all of the findings you have posted.

I am still visiting the archives on Wednesday with my sister as we have organised it for some weeks & as she has been researching the family over the past few years (I am relatively new and her assistant)! is looking forward to the occasion and to visit a few place names.

I have sent my e.mail address to the webmaster to forward on to you.

Fine. I hope that you can now see that I have now almost certainly found some intriguing lines of ancestry for you. An exact Google search against "sir roger kynaston" should lead you into things.

I might try to meet you at Archives next Wed afternoon. You might copy-and-paste all this thread into a Word doc to take with you on your trip. Hghlight each panel in blue and then use the edit icon at top of page, copy, then use psaste icon on your opened Word page.

It would be a pleasure if you could. I have booked a reader from 1100 to 1300 hrs, although I expect we will be there for longer.

This thread has been continuing off-board by e-mail; and a meeting at Shropshire Archives with our original poster "Man" and one of his sisters.

Wills which I ordered for them from Lichfield have just arrived and have turned up trumps, proving one's hunch as to an error in a baptismal entry of 1760. There is thus a clearly descent in the male line from Richard Kynaston (1697-1778), carpenter of Loppington (who refers also to his daughter Susannah Embrey); and thence back to "Wild" Humphrey and the latter's parents Sir Roger Kynaston, of Hordley and Lady Elizabeth Grey.